Friday, April 28, 2006

Queer Misogyny

Queer men face a serious problem within the community that does not receive much attention or discussion. A pathological current spreads among gay men that has reached epidemic proportions. No, I am not talking about the growing dependency on spray-on tans (although...). Rather, I am constantly struck by the level of misogyny that comes into play during many informal gatherings of gay men. Misogyny, the irrational fear and hatred of women’s bodies, too frequently creeps into our conversations when we are in exclusively gay-male groups.

Regardless of the racial, educational, or class make-up of the queer group, I have been dumbfounded by how easily self-identified gay men fall into misogynist dialogues or jokes. For many gay men, degrading women’s bodies as dysfunctional, inferior, or just plain icky becomes a means through which they attempt to build unity with other gay men.

Come on, boys, we can work this out. Loving cock does not mean hating vaginas.

More times than I would like to recount, however, I have witnessed exclusively gay male partygoers descend into discussions about their disdain of vaginas and women’s bodies in general. Even the most sexist straight guy would probably blush at the unchecked misogyny in queer-told jokes about vaginal penetration and/or menstruation. If you are a gay man who claims that he has never witnessed this type of discussion within a circle of gay male friends, you are either lying or not paying attention.

We shouldn’t be particularly surprised by the level of misogyny that some gay men harbor. All men seem to be socialized to bond through a common contempt of women. Misogyny, as many feminist scholars have consistently argued, is so pervasive and normative that we often don’t even see it. One needs only tune into mainstream U.S. television for five minutes to witness an unabashed disparaging of women’s bodies. All of the commercials for “women’s products” would lead one to conclude that women are always in a desperate state of infection and disrepair. If we take these ads literally, we could only assume that being a modern woman involves nothing but itching, burning, involuntary urination, and unending discussions about “freshness” with their co-workers.



Degrading women’s bodies as both exclusively sexual and also dysfunctional serves as a means for many men (regardless of sexuality) to claim unity in the alleged superiority of their own bodies. Perhaps some gay men take this even further as they deem women as less worthy because they have no desire to even fuck with them.

Gay men, though, know better. Much of the success of gay men, both politically and in our personal lives, depended on the active engagement of feminists in discussions about sexuality. Before gay men establish themselves within a community of gay men, they often report that the surrounding women in their lives helped them come to terms with their sexuality. In other parts of their lives, gay men continue to have strong personal bonds with women in their lives. Their mothers, sisters, and gal-pals all serve as much of their central support.

Yet, even gay men who consider themselves liberal can have a tendency to express sexist ideas or make jokes poking fun at women’s bodies. This type of contradiction suggests ambivalence about sex and gender within the gay community. Undoubtedly, the women in these men’s lives would be hurt and frightened if they were privy to the negative comments directed at women’s bodies.

Despite their other relationships with women, some gay men probably feel a type of empowerment by degrading women. Fears of being labeled “feminine” haunt many gay men’s lives. Our society still construes “masculine” and “feminine” as polar opposites. To obtain status as “manly,” we are taught as children that any trace of femininity must be obliterated within ourselves. Many gay men’s sense of self-value has been constantly threatened and attacked by claims that they are not “masculine” because of their sexual preferences, which are presumed to be “feminine.” These gay men wrongly attempt to recover their sense of self by verbally assaulting women within the security of the gay community.

I am not suggesting that misogyny within the gay community is the greatest threat to women. On the contrary, straight white men have the most power and ability to exploit and oppress all of us. Gay men’s allegedly humorous devaluing of women, however, makes us complicite in women’s oppression. It upholds assumptions about gender and sexuality that also keep us trapped.

I recognize that simply saying “Stop it” will not be enough to end misogyny within the gay community. Ignoring this problem, though, costs us much more than we realize.

We have to strengthen our solidarity between feminism and gay men’s quest for sexual freedom. If we become more vigilant about the ways that misogyny operates within our community and even in our own ideas about ourselves, we can start to recognize the critical links between gay liberation and the women’s movement. Solidarity between gay men and women increases our power and ability to further our resistance to the status quo.

44 comments:

Zeke said...

your analysis seems strange to me perhaps because I neither denigrate women nor have I ever had a strong female presense in my life. I see no reason other than minority bonding to strengthen gay and female group ties either. So far that has tied us into opposing abortion and supporting NOW neither of which are actually pressing gay matters.
While I agree that gay men do not need to denigrate women to bond I also do not believe that gays do it for that reason, rather as gay men that is a safe subject, you need something of a conversational piece that will offend no one in the group like minority jokes at a country club you do it because it's neutral territory.
Epidemic, that seems like a strong word, is it accurate where you are living? Unconciously I find male female sex unnatural but conciously I find it normal and am reminded that I am the statistical perversion.
also
"On the contrary, straight white men have the most power and ability to exploit and oppress all of us."
world wide it is not white men that are oppressing us, it is men and women of color and every other nationality from which we are in fear of our lives. While there are still gay bashings going on in the US, Britan and Austrlia, it is Jamacans, Muslims,and Africans that are using government sanction to kill gays.
I don't mean to nitpick your article, everyone gets to write what they want I just have a completely different picture even though I'm not that far from you distance wise And I see no reason for gay and feminist groups to unite after hearing lesbians denigrate gays. Still groups are stronger together than apart but perhaps your choice of allies would be better if they had more in common with your actual needs. This is a new age the 70's are long dead.
Cheers

April said...

Intelligently written and thought-provoking.

I've often wondered about this issue, and it's nice to hear your perspective on it.

Thanks

Frank said...

I admit to doing the "vaginas are icky" thing, but only with my female friends as something of an in-joke.

What I really don't is the Isaac Mizrahi "I'm gay, so I can squeeze your boobs!" thing. I would never think of touching a woman's body by grabbing her mammary glands unannounced. Hell, I don't think I'd do it even if she gave permission. It's just not right.

Earl Cootie said...

"Loving cock does not mean hating vaginas."

Amen. I know a group of gay men whose idea of a joke is to send each other pictures of naked women, so that they can retch and make nasty comments to each other. A major turnoff (the retching and commenting, not the women) to me. It's like an adult version of first-graders' cootie fears. (Oops. I said "cootie".)

A dive bar I frequented years ago had a bare-chested night once a week, and when one week, a female patron took off her shirt, she was asked to put it back on or leave the premises. I found that so horribly unfair, I've never been comfortable going topless in public since. (Well, the past several years there are new reasons why I don't take off my shirt outside the privacy of my own home.)

And that being said, I'll let you know that probably my favorite thing about possessing a penis is the ease of outdoor urination, a benefit I've found much more useful as I've grown older.

Margo, darling said...

OMG, can I marry you, you sweet man? I love this post. It is beautiful and warm and true. I wanted to log in here and be all campy and ironic with you, kind of "thank you sweetie, (wink, wink)" in a gesture of queer camaraderie.

But now that I'm here, all I want to do is thank you, sincerely, for a post that was not only clear and smart and well-organized, but true and compassionate and deeply, deeply moving. I just want to say, god bless you, and really, for the first time in my un-believing life, mean it.

Sfrajett said...

Fantastic post. I love your call for queer compassion, because of the compelling arguments you advance, and also because why in the world should we be drawn into that battle of the sexes, built on so much anger, resentment, and self-loathing, when we are trying to build lives on loving the things about ourselves and others we have been trained to hate?

I have been guilty of trying to get gay men to feel comfortable with me by joining them in denigrating women. Most dykes, however, don't spend much time thinking about men at all--and certainly, we tend not to be obsessed with anatomy. The man-hating stuff, as an older friend of mine one pointed out, is for the straight women, who are still battling so much out with men. Lesbians don't think about men that much. Leave that to those who are still entwined and battling things out.

So, does this mean a lot of gay men are stuck battling out their issues with women? Does this say anything about unresolved issues in their sexuality/status as men? Maybe so.

Elizabeth McClung said...

I have to assume that your comments about gays denegrating women isn't a parody or satire since no one seems to be laughing. I am still trying to work out the different between the straight contempt/jokes of women that views them as either meat-with-holes or inferior beings and gay jokes toward women - perhaps you can enlighten me. Is this really how gay men think of their moms? oozing infections?

I can't speak for any group except to say in my general experience and observation of humans - no particular group comes out smelling of sainthood - I am sure there are jerks of all of LGBTTQQI groups.

As for joining together, I can speak. This is not a natural thing; this is not an particular easy thing, but it is, I believe, the right thing. So we have differences, so we might not know so much about each other. That is fixable. If we can agree that prejudice and injustice is wrong and that we should learn about others, to care about them and the things important for them, then yes, we should work together to make an equal society. Yes, that is all idealistic stuff, isn't it. But if the only motivation is making sure MY rights or MY life is made better without concern for anyone else, then failure is the end result. Every right and freedom I have was paid for by someone else. I remember.

Roger Owen Green said...

Circa 1973, I had this romanticized notion that people who wrere oppressed (people of color, women, gays) had a common interest of fighting oppression. I guess I think it's a lot more nuanced now. I find blacks or women who are status quo folks (Condi Rice, Log Cabin Republicans) are in some ways even more irritating somehow.

But the phenomenom of dissing women's bodies - which straight men do all the time (woman stands up for herself: "Oh, she's just on the rag") is denigrating, not only to the targets, but to the speakers as well.

tornwordo said...

That was really nice Gay prof, I don't think I've thought about it quite this way, though I have felt a little shame when amongst my gay peers and the "vagaina revulsion" comments start happening.

It's the same collective "EWWWW" as straight men have when they see the spit scene in Brokeback.

The same.

The label misogyny I don't think applies in the same way with gay men. Straight men that denigrate women and hold them in lower esteem even as they bear their children seems much worse than a bunch of gay guys standing around giggling about "dripping pussies".

MaggieMay said...

Great post. And I think calling it "misogyny" is right on. And like with straight men's brand of misogyny, it's only going to end when its practioners recognize it as such.

Novice said...

Thank you.

Oso Raro said...

Gay misogyny was and remains a persistant problem in LGBT organizing, and I think is a complicated phenomenon, as some of the commentators here have indicated. While I certainly wouldn't go so far as to reaffirm Irigaray's stance on gay men and patriarchy (which strikes me as extreme and tired on the other side of the coin), gay men are still socialized (no matter how queeny we might be) as men, which affects our own relationships amongst ourselves as well as with women. The "Fag Hag" paradigm being one of the more problematic expressions of this ambivalence around gender, and explicit misogyny being another. I have been pleased to see the increasing alliances between Ls, Gs, and Ts in my own social circles and approach to women and trans folks, because I believe, as you do, that our strength lies in unity, and not a facile unity, but one which truly carves out spaces of mutual respect and understanding, which sort of precludes, by fiat, standing around scrunching up our faces at the thought of a vagina. Sure, it might be different, but to quote our sister Michael from Boys in the Band, "you've had worse things in your mouth!" If we really want to get to the heart of the matter, all sex is messy and fecund. Ew!

On a whole 'nother note, I found this recently online: http://www.gay.prof.esgay.com/

How come you didn't tell us? My favourite line: "Gay Prof declara estar muy orgulloso de su salida del armario, se lo dedica a todos los mariquitas y locas del pais que no se atrevieron todavia a dar el salto y salir del armario, ha sido tal la alegria y el alivio experimentado por Gay Prof que se ha marcado una jota aragonesa en pelota picada." My goodness, Gay Prof, who knew?

Luciferus said...

Hoo, boy. When I have time, I'll come back and weigh in. YIPPIE!

GayProf said...

Oso Raro: It's news to me.

Dagon said...

The most mysogynist joking I'm exposed to on a regular basis is from drag queens. Explain that one!

When my ex and I decided we needed "a mysogyny gix: we'd head to Hooters in Times Square for several hours of wings and beer.

Nate said...

Is finding the vagina disgusting inherently misogynistic? I'm not sure I agree it is. But regardless, it's an interesting point to be made, and something I hadn't thought of before. Nice blog.

-Nate

Eric said...

In my experience, the gay men who act the most repulsed by women’s bodies tend to be the most “feminine” – it’s like some sort of campy shtick to talk about how disgusting the vagina is. Often these guys came out very early in life and had little to no sexual experience with women. (For the record, I came out early and had little to no sexual experience with women.) I also know a fair number of guys who came out late – in their late 20’s and 30’s – after extensive experience with women. Some were even married (to women). These guys tend to be more conservative and conventional, but I NEVER hear them make negative comments about women’s bodies. Yet these men are relatively uninterested in gay activism.

Kalvin said...

Your post was very interesting to me. I've thought about it for a few days, and I did a post thinking about what you said. It's too long for here. Oh, and I love what Osoraro said, he's got some excellent points.

MEK the Bear said...

I'm guilty of inherently finding vagina's not really attractive, but I'm also the first to say how much I love Eve Ensler's Vagina Monologues (all gay men, straight men, and especially women should see it, it's an education.)

My experience has been that gay men who need to 'prove' their masculinity, either because they are themselves effiminate (including drag queens) or because they eschew any effimanincy in their mannerisms (leather men come to mind) are the worst offenders of misoginist humour and attitudes.

But their are gay men, from drag queens to leather men that appreciate the female form and the inherent beauty that's there that don't feel threatened of being seen as weak for being effiminate or hyper masculinize themselves for fear of ever being seen as 'girly'.

Elizabeth McClung stated it far better than I could. Feminism is not a cause purely for lesbians and oppressed women who desire change. Fighting for the rights of other people, a united front against oppression of all kinds, is the only way to assure that the rights we care about, that directly effect us, are to be gained.

buff said...

mpzDefinitely something to ponder. I just don't think about a woman's body, so I never comment about them. That's just me.
Great blog posts by the way. Got me to expand my horizons. Thanks for sharing.

bryce said...

Bravo. I totally agree with you on this one.

I don't know where I'd be in my life if it hadn't been for all the wonderful ladies that I have been so lucky to have around me. All my female friends deserve my respect and admiration. I would do anything for them.

Some friends and I got booted out of a gay bar in Portland last summer because we had a woman with us and I decided that I would never go there again. I can't stand being around misogynist gay men. It's such a major buzzkill and it just screams "I AM INSECURE IN MY MASCULINITY".

Lito Sandoval said...

Wow. You were able to flesh out (no pun intended) the thoughts I have about gay men and women's bodies.

I cannot stand gay men who refer to women as fish. These same gay men who disdain women's bodies and hetero-sex will be the first to call straight men homophobic when they wince at the idea of gay sex. Is it all part of a continuum of male privelege??

paz!
Lito S.

Gay Erasmus said...

Agree 100%. In my observation, queer misogyny usually begins with a somewhat accurate argument -- "Men and women are fundamentally different to each other" -- which then gets turned into a justification of a flagrantly inaccurate argument -- "Men and women therefore can't or have no need to get along with each other." The roles that gay men have traditionally designated women are shockingly similar to the kinds of stereotypes commonly perpetuated with respect to gay men: women are either submissive wallflowers ("fag hags", "flame dames") or dominant and monstrous ("dominatrix").

I do think that things are changing, though. For instance, it's becoming increasingly common for younger lesbians and gays here in Sydney to mix with each other. To some extent (though I wouldn't push this one too far), queer misogyny is, alas, a generational burden. -- Gay Erasmus

Paul said...

I agree with you that gay male misogyny is rampant, especially when you argue that the explicit denigration of women's bodies (and vaginas) is just a symptom of deeper problems about how men construct social worlds by jettisoning women's equality and agency.

The thing I'm pissed about these days is the growing number of gay men heavily invested in idolizing "straight men" as sexual partners. This is the part where gender identifications far outstrips sexual orientation in creating systems of oppression and patriarchal privilege. Ugh.

piecesofeight said...

That's an interesting point Paul. Particularly, as at least one lesbian has pointed out above as well, when I am with a group of lesbians, we don't talk about men at all. It just doesn't come up. Obviously that doesn't mean it doesn't happen in *some* places, but I've never experienced it. In that way your point makes alot of sense about social bonding and construction of social identity in a patriarchal society.

Elisabeth- this: "Every right and freedom I have was paid for by someone else. I remember." Amazing. Thankyou for reminding me.

bear said...

Hi. I'm a feminist and a religious conservative who doesn't travel in these deconstructionist circles anymore. I must say, talk of gay men's disdain for women's bodies rather confirms my suspicion that something has gone wrong. Anyone who is disgusted by the opposite sex needs therapy. Now you may get therapy and still be gay, and that's fine. But being disgusted by the anatomy of the opposite sex is neither normal nor natural.

Anyway, great post. Bless you for raising this topic.

bear said...

Dear zeke,

By the way, you're right the interests of women and gay men do not coincide in anything that I can think of. Though I'd be interested in views to the contrary.

Cheers.

anatole said...

In my case at least, loathing women's bodies is as natural as breathing. Tits give me the creeps, and I'd just as soon not hear that appalling nether orifice mentioned. I'm friends with a number of women--but, through life-long practise in not looking at what disgusts me, I contrive to have absolutely no idea what they look like. Furthermore, the least suggestion of effeminacy in a male is, for me, a total sexual turn-off. In fact, for some of us, loving cock really does mean also hating c--t. So what?

Anonymous said...

I cannot tell you how grateful I am to see this blog. I am an actress who does musical theater, and my whole life I have been surrounded by gay men. Many of my friends are gay and many of my co-workers are gay. Only in the past year or so, have I started to realize that many jokes and comments they make, are mysogynistic, and have slowly started to effect my self-esteem as a woman. When I have confronted them about this, they seem completely unaware and get pretty defensive on the subject. I was starting to feel like I was some crazy over sensitive feminist, so I looked online to see if anyone else felt the way I did. Then I read your blog, and was so comforted to find that you were a man and gay and felt this way too. Thank you for being sensitive enough to realize how wrong this behavior is, and for standing up for women. It says a lot about your integrity as a human being and shows confindence in who you are. Thank you!

Anonymous said...

I make these kinds of jokes all the time with my closest female friend, calling her "old milk bags" and "tuna twat" and "salmon snatch" and "cod cunt." In my case I think it's less a result of enculturation / male privilege, etc. and more an attempt to tunnel out of the boundaryless relationship I had with my mother. One female friend (an ob/gyn!) eventually told me when she had grown tired of such comments, and I no longer make them with her. I really don't know what it's about. Is it a way of keeping myself from merging into women? Is it a defense against sexual desires for women? I like to think that I'm not conflicted about my sexuality, but if I'm needing to make these comments all the time, can that be the case? As someone here said, just telling gays not to do it won't work. I agree. Though the etioloigy of these kinds of behaviors may not be definable in any conclusive sense, I think it's worth a bit of introspection. I'd like to hear where other men think this behavior comes from.

*~mad munky~* said...

thought-provoking...

Anonymous said...

I find this whole subject extremely hurtful. As a woman, if my gay friends think my body is gross and repulsive, how is that any different than if I were born with some physical defect? Or horribly burned? Would it be OK to make jokes about that too? What happened to seeing the person beneath the skin? Treating people as people? Isn't that what gay men want everyone to do when people are evaluating THEM? Why should you care about my ability to turn you on or not? Is it my job as a human being to make sure you are not repulsed by me? Seems more like many gay men are suffering with gynophobia rather than misogyny. If you didn't care one way or the other, you wouldn't feel the need to make negative comments.

So if I want to have gay friends, I guess I will have to have a sex change, because if I don't I won't be allowed in gay bars and clubs. How is this kind of segregation any different than any other kind previously perpetrated by white males?
I am hurt to find out that people that I love as people would even make such hurtful comments about me or my gender, and prevent me from hanging out with them due to some perceived notion that I am so different from them, and that my very presence repulses them. I am sorry. Women can't help who we are, fish stink and all. Not that a man's stink is any better; one always knows when one is near a men's room...

Helen said...

I don't like having sex with women either. I don't get together with my straight female friends and poke fun at lesbians and how a vagina looks. But then I don't do that about penises either. Defining yourself through any kind of hate is what is fucking disgusting.

Gay men and straight women have some things in common - including being an oppressed minority and falling into the trap of identifying with white, straight, patriarchal ideals. Then you get Condoleeza Rice, and Zeke.

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Betty said...

"On the contrary, straight white men have the most power and ability to exploit and oppress all of us."

Do you sincerely believe "straight white men" oppress women more than muslims, which are in their majority non-white? Really?

Betty said...

Check out anatole's comment:

"In my case at least, loathing women's bodies is as natural as breathing. Tits give me the creeps, and I'd just as soon not hear that appalling nether orifice mentioned. I'm friends with a number of women--but, through life-long practise in not looking at what disgusts me, I contrive to have absolutely no idea what they look like. Furthermore, the least suggestion of effeminacy in a male is, for me, a total sexual turn-off. In fact, for some of us, loving cock really does mean also hating c--t. So what?"

He hates it SOOO MUCH that he won't even write it.

Women are EXTREMELY MISTAKEN if they think that a nice "straight white male" is more oppressive than a gay man like anatole. EXTREMELY.

said...

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Courtney said...

I was explaining vaginal discharge and how the vagina cleanses itself to a close (gay and male) friend of mine. His response? "EW. Thank you for reaffirming my heterosexuality."


Like a fucking 5 year old. He's 25.

Anonymous said...

I really think that this is more of an issue of being insensitive than expressing a truly deep-seeded misogyny. I heard some lesbians going on and on about how gross men's penises smell to them, and they just didn't realize that it is hurtful to men to hear this, even though it should be no surprise that some lesbians feel that way. Sometimes, one truly has to be on the other side to know that something is offensive. Gay men who act like that are trying to share a common experience and they are sometimes grappling on forming an identity of being part of a group with a shared experience. It might be common for gay men to not like vaginas too much, but they need to try to put themselves in women's shoes to see that such conversations can be insensitive for women to hear. Not being into vaginas clearly does not necessitate being insensitive about women's bodies. And, clearly, whether or not one is attracted to women's bodies is a matter of personal taste rather and a reflection of some objective "truth" (and, even most of the guys who talk like that do realize this).